Jenny Carter: How hands on are you as a leader?

Allen McCampbell: Not very much. I am not very much of a hands on leader. But what I would try to do is kind of the old PESOS formula, prepare, explain, show, observe and then you correct or supervise. It is pretty basic. But what you want do is it is very quickly get your hands off it so the individual feels good, feels confident; their confidence level is growing, their competency level is growing and they’re doing what they supposed to do. They’re moving it from A to B to C to D like they’re supposed to do. If you’re building a team, then you must be able to demonstrate that because if you are not doing with all team members, all team members know. Soon, someone is wondering is he doing that person’s job and why, etc. You’re not building your team. And everybody has a role. You have your expectations. Let them do it. Even to the point, with a child, you have to let them touch the hot radiator. You have to. Now, you don’t want to create an environment where it’s a fatal mistake but you want them to learn. So you have to release them and let them grow.

Jenny Carter: I agree. We’ve had some things happen in the US in the past few months and years that have not been good leadership skills. What’s your take on that?

Allen McCampbell: Corporate America has experienced some devastating blows on the part of some giants in our industry; in the corporate world. It’s shaken the confidence of Wall Street; it’s shaken the confidence of shareholders that are, of course, working through Wall Street but in some of their own organizations. It has destroyed families that were relying on those shares whether in be in their 401K, etc for their retirement; their future. It’s destroyed them. It’s destroyed people that looked at it for their livelihood and their career, etc. Why? When you talk about the honesty and integrity…

Jenny Carter: What do you mean when you are saying that?

Allen McCampbell: That definition is not a vague definition. Honesty and integrity are pretty straight forward definitions. Honesty means: the person, to the best of their knowledge and ability is telling you, instructing you and coaching you in the right things to do. Honesty, this is it. Integrity gets into the fiber of your makeup; who you are; how you operate; the integrity you present. So, it’s how you carry yourself, how you conduct yourself, and how you close the sale. Whatever it is, that’s the integrity that you embody. If you are in a role that has impact on an organization, in any transaction, you look at it; generally speaking, I think I am correct, you know what is right to do and what is wrong to do. What keeps you on the right side, not the wrong side, is both your integrity and then you have to display your honesty. If you, for any reason, choose to jeopardize that by compromising your position and saying, maybe, and in those cases maybe won’t work. Maybe. Then what you are doing is compromise your integrity and you’re definitely compromising your honesty. These corporations have had these major problems. I feel very strongly that at the very top as well as layers right below, the individuals both compromise their honesty and their integrity, which is very destructive to the total organization. Why did it occur? The pressures created by the financial institutions and Wall Street for proper return on investments is so great that the last thing you want to do is report that you did not reach your target or your number. That is the last thing you want to do. So what you look for is areas where you can ‘maybe’. You can actually move it aside, even create another entity to put into it because you know it is going to turn around. It is going to get better and next year you can slip it back in and everything is OK. The problem with that is like telling a little while lie. Once you tell the first one, you’d better have a good memory because you are going to have it come up again and again.

Jenny Carter: That’s what I wanted to ask you too. Do you think it happens all at once? You know, I just decided that I was going to fib large or a little at a time?

Allen McCampbell: A little at a time, but then things kept getting worse. They didn’t get better. They kept getting worse. So what happened was the people at the top were finally put into a position where they could not explainit away. So that’s why I think it occurred. When it’s all said and done, the one sitting in the chair was responsible. And the honesty and integrity that’s demanded of that position is violated and you just cannot do that. You have to do what you have to do at the right time and in the right way. If it is stand up in front of the shareholders and say we lost $365 million last year you have to say that.

Jenny Carter: It may cost you your job.

Allen McCampbell: It will cost you your job. But the consequences are: now it’s cost them the job but it’s destroyed so many people as…

Jenny Carter: …cost them their job and reputation.

Allen McCampbell: Everything. So, you have to deal with that. So if you’re willing to be a leader, you have to take the consequence and face it.

Jenny Carter: The responsibilities of the leader are so much: I have no idea how much responsibility you had but I’m sure it looked great and easy from my position. But in your position are things that somebody that’s not in your position will never know.

Allen McCampbell: Responsibility is great. I have had some very sleepless nights over the decisions we’ve had to make, etc., especially in a company that was growing by acquisition. We’d bring companies in, and what we would do and what we’d have to do, etc. Yeah, I’ve had a lot of that. But I think what has always been my guidance is ‘what is the right thing to do’? And the right is the best I know at that time. If I don’t know, I need to seek out information. What it is we really need to do; the right thing to do and how we do and when we do it. And I never had anybody compromise me on that. Once we made our decision, many times it meant two, three hundred people would lose their jobs; no question. But those two or three hundred people losing their jobs meant these 7000 kept theirs. You don’t try to balance it that way, but in expense management and those things you do in consolidation; that is part of it. You can almost say whatever decision I have made, would I take pride and being able to publicize it to the world?

Jenny Carter: It’s hard to think that right when you are in the middle of the big decision.

Allen McCampbell: Oh, yeah. Or would it bother me to publicize it? You have to weigh those things. And that gets into the whole thing of ethical. What is the ethical and what is not ethical?

Jenny Carter: You’re saying that it is very simple. You know the right thing, just choose it.

Allen McCampbell: Hopefully, your right thing is in the line with the perception of right thing of others. That is the intuitive judgment. You are always going to deal with that. But I made the best I knew how at the time. Yeah you have to say this is the action we are going to take. This is the direction we are going. Bring the resources to bear on it. Double check your thinking on it and move on.

Jenny Carter: You said something earlier today that I loved. You said if you are too close to the elephant, all you see is gray. I love that. I keep hearing you say you’re an overall manager. You are very big picture. I can hear you saying that in everything you are telling me.

Allen McCampbell: A lot of people talk about the forest and the trees. I use the elephant. If the elephant is a problem, and you are so close, all you see is gray. So you don’t know what part to start on. If you step back far enough, you can see what the problem is and as I said, you eat an elephant one bite at a time. You have to back away far enough to know I have the elephant in my forest. I need to get the elephant out. When I am too close, I can’t see what it is. So I just start whacking and cutting at everything. But you have to see the big picture and you have to deal with the big picture. And in dealing with the big picture, you have to bring the elements in and weigh them. Cause-effect is very difficult to deal with in multi-complex organizations. It is not like; flip the switch off the light goes off: cause-effect. When you are dealing with complex situations in organizations and people that is not easy to do.

Jenny Carter: You wish you could flip the switch.

Allen McCampbell: You wish you could. So what you have to do is start isolating information and get down the best you know how to take the corrective action. It may be as simple as turning the light off but it didn’t start from that point. So in organizations, since cause-effect is very difficult to deal with, you have to do the best you can to get enough information to make the best decision you know how to make at that time.